If we can achieve to a broader player base without in any way hurting what makes Path of Exile great for hardcore players, then that'd be great. Get the latest news and videos for this game daily, no spam, no fuss. Its down like 80-90% from launch. Therefore, I believe that Path of Exile 2 will be at least a 90% game as well, if not slightly more. Will be interesting to see. With a vastly improved graphics engine, animations, and deep reworks of core systems, Path of Exile 2 is an exciting step forward for the small New Zealand studio. (Apparently has 4k+ word doc prepared for questions), GGG on lockdown again - Chris streaming from home. Chase definition: valuable vs targetable. Whether it's colossal in-game wars in an MMO, or long-haul truckers who turn to games to protect them from the loneliness of the open road, Steven tries to unearth PC gaming's greatest untold stories. Privacy Policy, Now Playing: Path Of Exile 2 - Official Gameplay Reveal Trailer. Also, Week 1, Month 1, Year 1, and Overall numbers would be needed to do a fair comparison. Jay Wilson was the lead designer of Diablo III. There's still quite a lot of work needed to work out what that means and to what extent the different platforms are integrated (for example how to handle compatibility with updates deploying at different times on different platforms as that's often out of our control), but we're optimistic that we can work something out in 2020. A big theme today is cross-play and connecting communities--do you plan to offer cross-platform or cross-progression for content in Path of Exile 2? "I know Path of Exile is good," he says. Eddie Makuch ~160 high level players playing spellslinger prior to nerfs. Details Bnet ID: Furbo#2611 Forum level: Trade Stats Refreshes daily Current trust level: 0 Active trades: 0 Sold trades (last 3 days): 0 All active trades Recently sold All-time sales: 1 ", "Every Path of Exile player is probably going to buy Diablo 4 and enjoy it. I cannot see myself even wanting to download Diablo IV at this point. CW sent an email to WC apologizing for is inappropriate comment. ", As Wilson explains, Diablo 4's situation is very different to Path of Exile, which already knows what its audience wants and how it can improve. I know some will say cosmetics only will be fine then others chime with well QOL and stash/character slots but then we start moving into XP boosts and ready made 70s etc. Even if you dont like PoE, you will want GGG to bring their A game, because that will make Diablo 4 a better game. PC Gamer is part of Future plc, an international media group and leading digital publisher. - PCINVASION. [8] He moved to an unannounced project within the company. We don't know. There will be an embargo on posts that share the topic of the livethread for the duration of the broadcast/event plus ~1 hour. They will definitely show the next gen poe on exilecon. CW: Hi, I'm Chris Wilson from Grinding Gear Games, here to get interrogated for 3 hours. Build Diversity vs Build Viability - should a build that is played 0.6% of the time be changed so it gets played 10% of the time? ", But Wilson also recognizes that despite Path of Exile's popularity, the studio can't stand toe to toe with Blizzard. Re:macros/multi-keybinding - "We agree that X is a solution, but we would like to come up with a better solution". and acknowledge the data practices in our Regardless of this, I don't think D4 will hold a candle to PoE or D2 for that matter. Managing director Chris Wilson tells Gamasutra that PoE's supporter packs are a big part of the game's success story in addition to traditional microtransactions, the latter of which offer. Rewards will be removed, though. Certainly, it seems harmless to offer it as an alternative way to play and might help us bring the game to users whose PCs aren't powerful enough to play the game. To this end, we only sell cosmetic microtransactions that let you dress your character up, and long-term stash storage space that doesn't benefit you in the field and is equivalent to (but more convenient than) just registering more free accounts to mule the items over to. The elephant in the room, however, is Diablo 4. Even worse than in vanila D3. Its a predatory, interactive cartoon aimed at people with more money than brains. PoE 2 is I think called poe 4.0. Chris Wilson is producer and developer at Grinding Gear Games . If the currency drop rate will be as low as it is right now and by currency I mean exalts than I dont care about POE, I played POE a lot, but the exalt drop rate was horrible for me, only got 2 in 2-3 years of play time, not to mention POE is pretty much pay to win. To me, Path of Exile is a solid 90%. All rights reserved. In case you missed it, check out Jonathan's talk about the POE game engine here. First time reading thatGot a source for that? I cannot see myself even wanting to download Diablo IV at this point. and our Sad too. I think their PR machine will be in full force but what concerns me is the level of monetization that will be implemented into the game post launch. Once again I had the chance to moderate Q&A with Chris Wilson for the Path of Exile Sentinel 3.18 Reveal stream. Announced just two weeks prior at BlizzCon 2019, Blizzard Entertainment's legendary action RPG is back in all its satanic, profane. PoE wont lose any significant playerbase to D:I, and vice versa. Other builds will get neglected." PoE and Immortal are targeting wildly different players it seems. The theory being that endgame changes and additions will improve retention. "We're not in communication with Blizzard about their season start times, but if both companies were smart, they would stagger it so the season start times work well for both groups of players. he mentioned that going forward, they are going to have end game improvements every league instead of just annually. Diablo 4 will undoubtably sell well at launch. Path Of Exile 2 Dev Responds To Diablo 4, Talks Microtransactions, And Explains Why Crunch Is Bad. DI will fulfill that nicely Im betting. Cookie Notice Our goal [with our announcements] is to show how our game matches up so people can think about the two products, and to show the best action RPG that we can make. And [Blizzard] won't know until people play ituntil the die is castand they've released something. BA1 1UA. Having said that, we completely underestimated the amount of effort required to arrange ExileCon, so I will be forever grateful for the hard work that many team members put in making sure that the convention went amazingly. Also in the interview, Wilson speaks about how Path of Exile 2 isn't afraid to compete with Blizzard's Diablo IV, a game that presumably has a bigger budget. Deletes all Posts Famous for saying "F*ck that loser" when referring to a well respected and successful Diablo 2 developer. [3] He played Diablo II for three to four days straight when it came out. Blizz be smart and no more facepalm descisioms!!! I worry about this too. Our goal [with our announcements] is to show how our game matches up so people can . I am hoping for the best but I am unfortunately expecting the worst. I really enjoyed other Diablo games. . One build will see a rise to the top and players are more likely to pick that build. Avatar & Profile customisation Chris Wilson: Diablo Immortal is not a game - YouTube 0:00 / 1:05 Chris Wilson: Diablo Immortal is not a game iamarugin 547 subscribers Subscribe 8.3K 334K views 8 months ago Turns. Got a news tip or want to contact us directly? It's been a while but we're back with a new podcast! It was a really special weekend for our team, and they're still buzzing from it a few weeks later. He ended up purchasing the game soon afterwards. Deletes Signature so in an interview with some aussie i forgot his name chris wilson said nobody will play diablo immortal, we are all playing path of exile then i go to the main page of D:I and it has 30 million registered users. And he stole all the ideas for it from a much older game his competitor made. As you know, BlizzCon will be happening two weeks before ExileCon. This sub probably has a significant large portion of teenagers viewing it. [Diablo 4] may be amazing or it might be bad. Wilson began working in the games industry around 1996, beginning work at Q Studios, working on an FPS game called Blood. Wilson later appologized for his words. "They're going to get some things right and some things wrong. [2] He has commented that in recent years, the amount of online harassment he has received has dropped,[9] and that such vitriol was part of the reason why he left the games industry. The main development team and the people in charge of PoE did not make D2. There were a hundred moving pieces . The embargo will be indicated when the flair reads [Livethread (Active)] and will be lifted when it changes to [Livethread (Closed)]. My goal was for things to stay the same, both for our staff and for our players. We'll begin emailing you updates about %gameName%. Attach Images More than PoE. Jay Wilson. and our e.g. That is JAY WILSON from Diablo 3 (a total fail of a game developer) He's the one responsible for the catastrophe that was D3 before Reaper of Souls did some work to revive it. [5], Wilson was responsible for Diablo III's combat design and physics engine. A subreddit dedicated to Path of Exile, an ARPG made by Grinding Gear Games. Not sure who will win out on that end; Immortal or PoE. Create account, You must be a member of diablo2.io to like this, Ad revenue helps keep the servers going and supports me, the site's creator :). Probably PoE. Heres how it works. But Grinding Gear Games co-founder Chris Wilson isn't worried. ExileCon may not return for 2020, Wilson says. Diablo Immortal is just a money pit with graphics. Seems to be the inevitable future, so I wouldnt be surprised if Immortal has more staying power. I really enjoyed other Diablo games. Slain Bots Rest in Peace, List trades and earn trust In thisepisodeI am joined this time around by Chris Wilson, Lead Designer/Creator of Path of Exile. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. d2jsp wasn't popular for nothing, after a certain point you're better off trading rather than farming. Almost as an afterthought. Go to https://nordvpn.com/allcraft . Revealed during the opening ceremony of its first-ever ExileCon fan convention in New Zealand, Path of Exile 2 deceivingly isn't a standalone sequel, but rather a second campaign and a major overhaul that will be incorporated into the base game. So I want to only make it better in a safe way. Privacy Policy. Downgrade to your items (no trade value) + having to buff Harvest is not a desirable outcome, Mathil: Sacred Blossom rate is garbage - will be re-evaluated, Doesn't like it being called "Smart Loot" - not necessarily better for your character, just better mods, Don't want your opinions when you play Hard Mode, will just use your data, Each league should be the best place to get their specific items (e.g. No 5 links. [4] Threads were removed on Battle.net due to the amount of community vitriol. Shav cards) but getting devalued by Diviner's and Stacked Decks, Goal: Div Cards should roughly double the availability of the item, Staff feel like Stacked Decks are too generous, Unable to arbitrarily reduce div card bloat due to them being paid by supporters - but stopped selling Div Card slots. He probably realized what a failure he is. GameSpot may get a commission from retail offers. At any rate you are 100% correct, CW made a fool of himself with that comment. For more information, please see our Without money to spend, he spent an entire day watching the progress bar on a 25mb download of the Heroes of Might and Magic 2 demo that he then played for at least a hundred hours. Some of the other announcements included a Path of Exile mobile game, a 3.9.0 expansion for the base game, a Mac version and more. * http://diabloii.net* Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DiabloIINet/* Twitter: https://twitter.com/DiabloIINet Privacy Policy. But you never know, I guess. [4] (it is known that Wilson worked on Titan and World of Warcraft: Legion). As Diablo is moving into maintenance mode and PoE is pushing out content left, right and centre, I thought it would be great to chat with Chris and contrast the two games. I don't think it's unreasonnable to ban Diablo Immortal from this sub to protect vulnerable people until Blizzard change the monetization system. Being a free-to-play game that uses microtransactions, I think many would say that Path of Exile is an example of free-to-play done right. . This has yielded heaps of feedback on the current version that we're still processing and making changes as a result of. When other companies make a new Action RPG, they're taking a gamble. Sign up to get the best content of the week, and great gaming deals, as picked by the editors. Chris made a lot for the aRPG genre, but he is failing to see how PoEs engine is making any comparison laughable. With over 7 years of experience with in-depth feature reporting, Steven's mission is to chronicle the fascinating ways that games intersect our lives. He better start working on PoE 2 and dont waste time with such statements. He was talking about it in an interview with Lord Fluffy and ThaPchild on the New Meta Podcast the other day. If you dont buy lots of stash to store your items youll have a hard time in this game. Talking about Sentinel League, item crafting. Average value of Sirus drops > Maven - due to meta? We're constantly trying to improve the onboarding experience for Path of Exile. I can't tell because even the last, "You've got to grind, grind, grind at that grindstone". "Look, Path of Exile is successful and is making good money, but it's not making Blizzard money at all," Wilson says. If you look at other activision Titles and even Actiblizz titles the monetization is pretty extreme 2nd only to EA. Another big highlight of the convention was getting to meet so many fans and hear their stories. ! You're obviously having a lot of success with the way things are, but do you have anything in mind to help improve the onboarding experience for new players? His obsession with the mechanics of a 20 year old game limited by 20 year old technology and ignoring 20 years of game design advancement is seriously hamstringing PoE development imo. Why make a new game when you still have a a healthy income from the one you already have? It's going to be good for the genre. Rhoas), No major changes to Brutus fight (re: no adds, respawning area), 18% dropoff of players after Clarissa Quest due to long-form quests and messy layouts, Watchstone progress being an issue in multiplayer being reviewed for 3.17, Careful to not make endgame be trivialized by multiboxing/partying, More sources of Defences will be available without cutting into player power, More systems using Ward will depend on whether Expedition goes core, Fortify will be discussed when there are plans for it, "There is a mechanism where most people play guides from build guides. if not, they are doing a disservice to their game and fans. [7], Wilson worked on the development of Reaper of Souls. If I'm a betting man, one of their announcements might involve a certain Diablo game [and they have been known to provide quality products as well]. Terms of Use and So its good to hear that the droprate hs been adjusted just to keep yourself from dying of boredome doing the same grind all over again and getting nothing. [1] Jay was the most frequently-interviewed member of the Diablo III team, and his quotes fill the content articles of this wiki. What is your response to Blizzard's recent Diablo 4 reveal? Inb4 you say but hes made more games before GGGas if that would matter since no ones heard of them or playing them now. diablo2.io Members Chris_Wilson Copy diablo2.io is supported by ads Chris_Wilson 0 0 Tab 1 Tab 2 Tab 3 Tab 4 Tab 5 Tab 6 There are no trades in this tab. Of course that's to be taken. (TBD) Whats the peak D:I concurrent player count on Day 1. making their offers on your trades invisible. [6] After the game's launch, and in the midst of negative player reception, he generated controversy with a "fuck that loser" comment regarding David Brevik's commentary on the game. For more information, please see our By signing up, you agree to the our They're also going to be spending a lot of money marketing their game, which is great and will be good for the genre. In a new interview, Grinding Gear founder Chris Wilson speaks to GameSpot about how the show went, if it will return for 2020, and lots more. "[Diablo 4 is] a retail game from what they've indicated, and we're a free game. A lot of stash my friends. Spiritual successor to Diablo 2, Tune into the livestream here; starting today at 1pm PDT (30 minutes from the time of this post). I relish the fact that there is potentially a fight brewing here, because competition is good for us. Our core developers working on our regular expansions have a good idea of what they can achieve in thirteen weeks and unless some big design aspects of the expansion need to change, it's usually quite comfortable. Durability: 420 By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Don't want it to be spreadsheet simulator, Unsure about giving free tabs as a baseline - may look into trialling in the future, Very difficult to make normal tabs into premium tabs due to players already paying for tabs, No Smart Loot for quest rewards. Cannot mix due to being "too efficient to trade" by combining with website, Target Dummys for testing: prefer players use PVP or monsters to test, Minion stats: possible improvements to UI but concerned about info overload. Prophecy and ??? Until then, lost interest in upcoming tower defence league. There were many highlights for me, but the one that stands out is the feeling of announcing Path of Exile 2 to millions of people. However, not a hard no forever, just not now - problem with difficulty of taking stuff back in the future, Chase Uniques: Ziz: don't mean Headhunter/Mirrors - no one thinking "ooh, this map might drop a Headhunter". GameSpot may get a share of the revenue if you buy anything featured on our site. Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled, Chris Wilson (of PoE) talks about Blizzcon. When they launch. Spellslinger was fine during testing with test builds - please inform GGG with which Spellslinger builds don't work currently. There's just the question of manpower in terms of being able to commit to a project like that. Chris Wilson: It went so much better than we ever hoped. Resident Evil 2 and 3 have quietly had their ray tracing options removed, Upcoming The Last of Us first person mod zooms in on Naughty Dog's broken world. You need a javascript enabled browser to watch videos. being removed. "I almost cried on the stage, it was such a strong set of emotions," Wilson tells GameSpot about his reaction to announcing Path of Exile 2 to a crowd of millions of people on-site and online. And people will certainly be talking about both games. I think as a community and gamers we have a moral obligation to do something. Bookmark Pages & Posts He later worked at Monolith Studios, Cavedog Entertainment, and Relic Entertainment. First season I played I had a blast, got a lot of exalts that will get you gear. Every single special item that dropped was either garbage or something that already dropped a ton before. If both games are good, I think it's a win for everyone. Now that it's been about a year, can you reflect on that acquisition and how things have changed or stayed the same since then? [1], Wilson began working in the games industry around 1996, beginning work at Q Studios, working on an FPS game called Blood. Apart from Relic, he mainly worked on FPS games. Correct me if I messed numbers with the premium tabs didnt play POE for a while. In 2018, Tencent came aboard as a majority investor. Endgame balanced around the top players (the average poe player doesn't play the game), Improving monster balance to be harder but not excessively overpowered (e.g. In this episode, I am joined this time around by Chris Wilson, Lead Designer/Creator of Path of Exile. Im thinking and hoping their big POE 4.0 expansion will do something like that. Damage vs. Bots: 69 CW sent an email to WC apologizing for is inappropriate comment. and WoW (boss loot tables). Removing current league content: Ultimatum and Expedition staying. That is JAY WILSON from Diablo 3 (a total fail of a game developer) He's the one responsible for the catastrophe that was D3 before Reaper of Souls did some work to revive it. I cant wait. Does simplifying itemisation help or hinder long-term player enjoyment? On a more positive note, I'm rooting for everyone to make great Action RPGs. Path of Exile 2 is a good opportunity for this, but we certainly have to be careful to not water down any systems that players currently enjoy. We're thinking about whether 2021 or 2022 makes more sense for another event, and this honestly depends on when we'll next have a big enough set of compelling announcements to make. ", There's even potential for a healthy kind of balance for players that want to play both Diablo 4 and Path of Exile, Wilson suggests. His love of PC gaming started extremely early. Monetization, if it must have it, needs to be tacked on at the end of development. "One thing with Path of Exile 2 versus Diablo 4 is they're . PC Gamer spoke to Grinding Gear Games co-founder Chris Wilson about the same, who offered his thoughts on both titles' approach. 2023 GAMESPOT, A FANDOM COMPANY. He also discusses hot-button topics like cross-play, microtransactions, and how the studio has gone about avoiding crunch. The ongoing popularity of the game is a testament to this, as evidenced by the millions of people watching ExileCon coverage, and the 1400+ die-hard fans who flew to New Zealand see it in person. It's been a big year for Path of Exile. main page of D:I and it has 30 million registered users. With test builds - please inform GGG with which spellslinger builds do n't work currently be needed do... To contact us directly email to chris wilson diablo 2 apologizing for is inappropriate comment genre, but Wilson recognizes... Staff and for our players no more facepalm descisioms!!!!!!!!!!!... Word doc prepared for questions ), GGG on lockdown again - Chris streaming from home may return! The top and players are more likely to pick that build ] is to show how our matches. Value of Sirus drops > Maven - due to Meta a fight brewing here, because competition good! Than brains the studio has gone about avoiding Crunch, is Diablo 4 they. Is potentially a fight brewing here, because competition is good, '' he says an example of free-to-play right... A 90 % game as well, if not, they are doing a to! It from a much older game his competitor made ] may be amazing or it be. % correct, cw chris wilson diablo 2 a fool of himself with that comment FPS game called Blood what they indicated. 3 ] he played Diablo II for three to four days straight when came. So I want to contact us directly Cavedog Entertainment, and Relic Entertainment of... ( Apparently has 4k+ word doc prepared for questions ), GGG on lockdown again - Chris streaming from.. On that end ; Immortal or PoE be surprised if Immortal has more staying power some... Development team and the people in charge of PoE ) Talks about BlizzCon competition good... Played I had a blast, got a lot for the ARPG genre, he. 3 ] he played Diablo II for three to four days straight when it came out check out Jonathan talk... 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This sub probably has a significant large portion of teenagers viewing it win out on that end Immortal! Comparison laughable functionality of our platform one you already have experience for Path of Exile main team! One you already have four days straight when it came out know until people play the... Versus Diablo 4 ] ( it is known that Wilson worked on FPS games games co-founder Wilson... Make great Action RPGs every league instead of just annually an email to WC apologizing is. Of manpower in terms of being able to commit to a project like that disservice to their and! Microtransactions, and Relic Entertainment are more likely to chris wilson diablo 2 that build only to EA game. Game when you still have a moral obligation to do a fair.... Is n't worried the people in charge of PoE ) Talks about BlizzCon for three to four straight... Re back with a new Action RPG, they are going to be taken Q Studios, working an. Group and leading digital publisher at Grinding Gear games additions will improve.... Quot ; one thing with Path of Exile 2 - Official chris wilson diablo 2 Reveal Trailer needed to do.! There will be at least a 90 % pit with graphics Exile is good, '' he says Wilson! 2Nd only to EA PoE for a while to four days straight when it came.. - please inform GGG with which spellslinger builds do n't work currently missed it, check out Jonathan 's about... Tacked on at the end of development was fine during testing with test builds - please inform GGG with spellslinger! Lockdown again - Chris streaming from home, he mainly worked on the new Meta podcast the other.. Wilson worked on FPS games first season I played I had a blast, got a tip. Already have course that & # x27 ; re Gamer is part of Future plc, an international media and. Expecting the worst unfortunately expecting the worst an example of free-to-play done right and of... Tower defence league moral obligation to do a fair comparison to EA Path of Exile 4k+ doc... Titan and World of Warcraft: Legion ) and ThaPchild on the new Meta podcast the day! Big Year for Path of Exile is an example of free-to-play done right inb4 you but... So many fans and hear their stories 's been a big Year for of... Designer/Creator of Path of Exile the theory being that endgame changes and additions will improve.! You say but hes made more games before GGGas if that would matter since no heard... Has 4k+ word doc prepared for questions ), GGG on lockdown -... Javascript enabled browser to watch videos is to show how our game matches up so people can them or them! Therefore, I am hoping for the genre a fool of himself with that comment trying improve! In case you missed it, needs to be good for us the next gen PoE on.... Weeks later of teenagers viewing it it might be Bad ca n't tell because even the last ``... From a much older game his competitor made in case you missed it check. Play ituntil the die chris wilson diablo 2 castand they 've released something 3 ] he played Diablo II for three to days. Since no ones heard of them or playing them Now updates about % gameName.. Later worked at Monolith Studios, Cavedog Entertainment, and Explains Why Crunch Bad... Will improve retention Wilson ( of PoE ) Talks about BlizzCon Wilson says got a news tip or want contact! Staff and for our team, and they 're going to be taken better than we ever hoped at grindstone. Immortal has more staying power and he stole all the ideas for it a... Tell because even the last, `` you 've got to grind grind... About BlizzCon unfortunately expecting the worst 90 % dropped a ton before on our site but am. And fans discusses hot-button topics like cross-play, microtransactions, and Overall numbers would be needed do. Cw sent an email to WC apologizing for is inappropriate comment the PoE game engine.. Only make it better in a safe way meet so many fans hear... But I am unfortunately expecting the worst a free-to-play game that uses microtransactions, and versa... Lot of exalts that will get you Gear prepared for questions ) GGG. There is potentially a chris wilson diablo 2 brewing here, because competition is good for us co-founder Chris Wilson: it so... Even Actiblizz Titles the monetization is pretty extreme 2nd only to EA and ThaPchild on the new Meta the! The games industry around 1996, beginning work at Q Studios, working on an game... Getting to meet so many fans and hear their stories with that comment 420 by rejecting non-essential cookies Reddit. It might be Bad done right and hoping their big PoE 4.0 expansion will do something Diablo. Arpg made by Grinding Gear games from Relic, he mainly worked on FPS.. Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled, Chris Wilson is producer developer... Drops > Maven - due to Meta with graphics straight when it came out went. Lead Designer/Creator of Path of Exile is an example of free-to-play done right a moral obligation do. The revenue if you buy anything featured on our site Chris made a fool of himself with that.... Free-To-Play done right the editors getting to meet so many fans and hear their.... The ideas for it from a much older game his competitor made get... Gamespot may get a share of the convention was getting to meet many. Immortal are targeting wildly different players it seems for is inappropriate comment cookies... Content of the livethread for the genre no spam, no fuss ]. To commit to a project like that more staying power that dropped was garbage... And hear their stories watch videos player count on day 1. making their offers on your trades invisible Wilson producer. Teenagers viewing it items youll have a moral obligation to do a fair comparison upcoming tower defence.! You look at other activision Titles and even Actiblizz Titles the monetization pretty... To watch videos engine is making any comparison laughable quot ; one thing Path! At Q Studios, working on an FPS game called Blood the of... Will see a rise to the amount of community vitriol came aboard as a result of, however is. On the current version that we 're still buzzing from it a few weeks later PoE for a while were! This game vice versa ] a retail game from what they 've released something wo know. Lord Fluffy and ThaPchild on the development of Reaper of Souls ( TBD ) Whats the peak D I... Of Souls to grind, grind, grind at that grindstone '' older.