It's just the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 that comes with it's own manifold (with fuel rails, I believe) which seems to get universally good reviews) that is not directly compatible with the Magnum heads. One better than the other? In most cases, youll need to invest in a fuel system to work with EFI, along with charging system and ignition upgrades to further drive up the overall investment. the end of the runner on the intake manifold right before the air flow stream enters the That should sum it up right there. I know it pretty much a sniper with comp tuning abilities. TurboGLH said: The price difference between a sniper and the Edelbrock is much less than the Edelbrock and a holley hp. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. The engine was still making power when it hit the rev-limiter. After looking at the options, I chose the Holley Terminator X. Leaning toward Pro Flo 4. Edelbrock combines the CRANK and CAM (two separate wires from the ECU into one connection at the distributor) trigger signals into one. Pro-Flo 4 is 5 volts to power the distributor. Pro-Flo 4 EFI has the potential for improved fuel economy when upgrading from a I just bought the Sniper 2 barrel version for my other bronco, hope to install soon. mixture to separate as it flows to the cylinders, resulting in an uneven mixture between The COMP Cams Max-Lift BSR Shaft Rocker Systems (PN 1983-16) was a needed upgrade since our factory rockers were looking pretty rough after years of abuse. SEE WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY. With the tablet once again, Tommy Bluetoothd another two-degrees to the ECU and made a pull. This system was developed by Bendix back in 1957. IIRC it will only cover up to 550hp. What piqued our interest was that Edelbrock claims this unit is extremely easy to use. I bought Sniper for my car and before I bought the Hyperspark distributor, CDI box and coil, I was. Sep 25, 2019 #1 Holley Sniper or Edelbrock Pro Flo 4? that is why i bought this system. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The kit also includes a distributor, ECU, gaskets, and wiring harnesses. I've never been satisfied with the timing stability with the Chrysler OEM distributor slot & tang arrangement. The standard four-barrel option also includes a dual-pattern flange that allows it to bolt in place of square 4150 or spread-bore four-barrel carburetors. Pro Flo 4 has made my 1969 Camaro daily drivable which I would have never thought possible. I did like the fact that with the Holley & the tuning software could go in & look at the whole picture, fuel map, take data logs etc. You must log in or register to reply here. similar to a carburetor. Save Share. atomization and precise distribution to each cylinder for the ultimate performance. "Do you know how whipped an engine has to be to blow that loud? Even with all new parts, I've always had serious spark scatter. Your build and personal preferences might require something else. 7 narrow/1 wide window at the pickup. HOUSTON WhiteHorse ECU Switched Holley Terminator X over Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 1 view Sep 21, 2022 1 Dislike Share Save 2WhiteHorse8 273 subscribers I needed more from my ECU so I had to. To learn more, view our. I emailed Holley to find out whether their Terminator X can/will control a Nag1 or 545fe trans. Thanks to Mark and Curt, Mark for meeting me out there and going for a ride. I would think it should hold up if mounted away from heat sources, but FiTech uses the cheapest parts available for their systems, so failure is always possible. About a decade out dated similar to the XT. I was able to install it in one afternoon and the wiring was truly plug and play. The sniper ecu is in the throttle body. This causes inconsistent and unsatisfactory performance caused by poor atomization and uneven cylinder distribution. We were blown away at how good this unit is right out of the box. The FiTech LS system uses a remote ECU. Then it hit us, we havent even attempted to tune the Pro-Flow 4, and it picked up 70 horsepower. After a little debate and going back and forth, we decided that anything over 400 horsepower would be a good gain. There are very few downsides to the Sniper EFI system for the average user. idle speed, acceleration fuel, coolant fans, rev limiter and much more from the E-Tuner 4+ app, giving you complete control of the system. After the dyno session, we spoke with Tommy to get his thoughts on the Pro-Flo 4 EFI system. The new Pro Flo I can't say enough good. - Mark Honsowetz For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. This page was generated at 04:50 AM. So don't be suckered into the "four wires" thing. The COMP Cams team has spent an infinite amount of time testing and creating combinations that balance maximum performance as well as dependability. While it's more time-intensive than a carb swap, it's as close to a bolt-on as you're going to find. You can opt to revamp your ride with a late-model engine swap, which requires a lot of time, money, and resources, or you can make the relatively quick upgrade to electronic fuel injection. the past. The graph on the right shows the last three pulls we made with the best being 440 horsepower at 6200 rpm and 400 lb-ft of torque at 4800 rpm. We'll send you the most interesting LSX Magazine articles, news, car features, and videos every week. One additional item that you will need to order with the kit is the Ignition/IAC harness. 70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C. Coming from EEC-IV, which worked flawlessly. Off-roaders it works!. I was a little concerned because I have only installed one fuel injection system prior to this and it didnt go as smooth as advertised. Self-Learning TBI systems will always be compensating for continual intake manifold surface temperature variances. The biggest reason for the Sniper EFI taking our top pick is the simplicity of installation. This application-specific kit is the best way to. We went ahead and changed the factory platinum plugs out for a set of NGK TR55s, added 10w30 weight oil and a new K&N oil filter. Namely that, even if modern EFI systems are easier to install than ever, there's more to think about than just the tools you'll need to bolt one on. Copyright 2022 Holley Performance Products, Inc. All right reserved. to a throttle body. Welcome to ClassicBroncos! Pro-Flo 4 EFI functions much like modern fuel injected cars today utilizing eight injectors, one at each cylinder that injects fuel on time with the intake valve opening. If I do a GEN3 swap, I will use Edelbrock for sure. It's not required, but it is an option. If you add the cost of a single plane manifold to the Sniper you start getting close to what the Pro-Flo 4 costs. Stephen Hotz said: Drill the heads for LA bolt pattern and bolt the pro flow4 on. The idea was to take the high-mielage engine like any normal hot rodder would and throw the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 EFI on and see how it does. Being able to control my engine from a tablet or phone through an app is awesome. For intakes that do not have the . I'm considering a Terminator X for it. Our kit came with an Acer tablet that already had the Edelbrock software installed. I wont settle for anything but the best, and thats the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 system. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Great responses! The tablet and Pro-Flo 4 app performed flawlessly. The pre-loaded calibrations on the E-Tuner 4 app are great, and I really like the ability to adjust the system and monitor engine vitals right from a phone or tablet., Looking to upgrade to EFI. To do a conversion a Dual Sync is recommended. It was affordable and runs well, but pretty cheaply made compared to others I have installed. By continuing to use our site, you agree to their use. It ultimately comes down to what you're trying to achieve and how much time you're willing to spend tuning your car. Haven't found the part number yet. Tommy grabbed the tablet, opened the advanced-tuning tab, and within seconds, we were ready to make another pull. A. So far the throttle response is amazing and I have noticed a significant increase in fuel mileage. I have a auto repair shop and currently working on a customer's 59 Chevy truck with a LS3 motor. Also there are way more instances of guys having emi and RFI interference with sniper due to the ecu being inches from a distributor and coil. I have the pro flow intake and a Holley terminator controller that I'm happy with. Holleys Sniper EFI system is tough to beat in most situations. Its been a night and day difference in what I feel in driveability and seat of the pants fun. 08-03-2020, 08:54 AM. improve the performance, drivability and quality of your vehicle! Key to the improved performance of a system like this is the fuel injector location, which is at the end of the runner on the intake manifold right before the air flow stream enters the combustion chamber. The installation was plug-and-play, and the self-learning ECU is already doing an amazing job after only a few short drives. I run an Edelbrock Pro-flo on my 462 inch FE truck. We resisted the urge to clean the engine off and just wiped down the cylinder heads to ensure we had a good seal between them and intake manifold. I have the Holley terminator and love it. more to add from me now i have time after work . The junkyard LS still picked up some power but not near as much as the previous pull, which told us were about done with the timing table. Recently, we spoke with Mark Honsowetz, the EFI Product Manager of Edelbrock, about the Pro-Flo 4 Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) for the LS engine and some of its advantages over a carbureted setup. I installed the Pro Flo 4 system on my 69 L78 396 with the Edelbrock fuel sump. At that point, the distributor wouldn't even need to be plugged in. I had great performance with the PF1 but this new system was so much better. To ensure we put together a list of recommendations and buying guides that are truly useful to you, we take the time to research the latest offerings from leading manufacturers as well as many customer reviews to find out which are the best EFI systems on the market. It's not compatible with Holley EFI as-is. check out the, Running a tablet instead of the FiTech controller-I fear it will eventually break outside of warranty (these plug in ports are some of the, While FiTech has improved-the customer support is still lacking IMO. Key to the I'm getting ready to do some upgrades over the winter and EFI is on the list. The only downside is that there are quite a few options to pick from, but a quick guides all it takes to sort things out. Since that time, fuel injection has gained popularity as it increases an engines efficiency as well as drivability. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Posted by Brian Havins on Tuesday, July 30, 2019. While this particular kit mounts in place of 4150 carburetors, versions are available to work with single-barrel and two-barrel applications. After the dyno session, we spoke with Tommy to get his thoughts on the Pro-Flo 4 EFI system. I shot this video back in 2019 so yes it has been running and driving for over a year. That's a great way to go if you're starting from scratch, which most folks will be as they convert from carburetor to fuel injection. this system has no problems IF you follow the install instructions TO THE LETTER. This isn't a feature of a sniper or a terminator though. - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. The Pro-Flo EFI 4 was perfect right out of the box I didnt even look at the instructions. Build your own custom newsletter with the content you love from LSX Magazine, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE! That being said it runs well. Different kits are available to shorten the shopping process as well. May God's grace bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ. Sniper goes from $1000-1500. Banging gears, turning wrenches, and praying while spraying are just a few of his favorite things. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Final Thoughts It's the first EFI distributor I used with Holley EFI. I took the tablet and pushed a few buttons. I'm still deciding between it and the holley style regulator since I've used the holley style on a terminator kit I did on a different car but I can't seem to find much info on the Pro-Flo regulators except one youtube video and the recommendation on the Edelbrock . Anyone looking to switch to EFI I would strongly recommend this kit., "The install of this kit was a breeze considering the entire manifold is already assembled and the harness is completely plug and play; an easy Sunday job over the fender. I've heard pros and cons of both but would love your input on your thoughts here first! The system came with a cast aluminum intake manifold, throttle body, fuel injectors, fuel rails, sensors, fittings, hardware, ECU, wiring harness, tablet, and detailed instructions. Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 EFI Traditional 4150-Style Kit Check Latest Price Summary Port injection offers optimal performance for any engine. I'll say it has been a great system for a street only car, but is WOEFULLY lacking for the strip. Looking for some advice pertaining to Holley Sniper and Tire Size upgrades. This is by far one of the best and easiest EFI systems that we have had the experience of testing to date. The E-Tuner 4+ app can be downloaded for free from either the App Store or Google Play. With the addition of spark control ($500) you're at the same price point. 454ci, 500-600hp, street cruiser Out of those three, the Pro-Flow, because it is a multi-port, sequential system. With our junkyard test engine on the stand, we started removing everything we didnt for the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 EFI system. I wouldn't recommend running a Sniper without the matching Hyperspark distributor. (which is what the Holley Terminator is) is going to be more powerful and have better drivability than just about any carb. JavaScript is disabled. Throttle response was worse, sometimes stalled when coming off hard throttle. Now I have a lot more control over engine and, most important to me, data logging.This video shows a quick overview of the Terminator X Software as well so take a look. Has anyone made the Edelbrock EFI distributor work with the Terminator or is the HyperSpark the only option? Edelbrock offers EFI kits available for most applications, including the popular Chevy LS. The Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 system comes with a throttle body and fuel rails that are already preassembled on a single-plane intake manifold. cfm throttle body, fuel rails and individual injectors for each cylinder. American Motors Corporation (AMC) designed the first commercial EFI system, called the Electrojector. Another option we want to see is the use of power-adders. Instantly, the used 5.3 roared to life and idled smoothly. So gar, I love it! I have done 3 Pro-Flo installs on older Mopar engines and I am super happy with their product and support.. If youre looking for an easy-to-use EFI system to convert your carbureted hot rod over to the modern era, the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 EFI system from Edelbrock is going to be tough to beat. There is even an optional Android tablet available with the Edelbrock tuning app loaded. cylinders. It should be in the 500ish flywheel range. This page was generated at 06:50 AM. Sniper EFI systems are also notoriously finicky in that everything needs to be just right to get it to work. It may not display this or other websites correctly. As with our proven Pro-Flo 4 EFI, the advanced plug-and-play Pro . Now it was time to start the engine and tune it. UNDER CONSTRUCTION repaint to Ford Kona Blue, black 18in AR VN 510 / Holley Terminator / 3.4L Whipple Fordstrokers 427 / 8.8 rear with 373 gears / Wilwood disc brakes./ Vintage Air a/c & serpentine / FPA Headers with X pipe & Dynomax Ultraflows / cut outs / BCA Transmission 4R70w. If . With the COMP goodies in place and the engine buttoned up, it was time to give the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 a go. The stock engine was locked and loaded for our first round of dyno pulls. throttle body style injection for 9 years before transitioning to sequential port fuel I know that there are pros and cons for each type of fuel injection but has anyone tried both ( Ideally on the same engine)? ? Downside is that from my reviews there is no way of hooking a laptop to it other than the handheld and personally adjusting any of the tables.that the only option is the tablet or phone. I have a Pro Flo 4 on my 318/390 stroker and its fine but I'm strongly leaning towards the Holley for my Gen III swap. The wizard asked us about the firing order, 24x or 58x reluctor wheel, cubic inches, cam profile, fuel system, injector size, and to our dismay, that was it. Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) is not a new concept in the automotive industry. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Unless something is seriously wrong, an EFI system should increase the fuel economy of your car. I've been running the Holley Terminator on a 393 since right after it came out in 2013. Have you ever seen a better-looking set of spark plugs with no tuning? You can get all of the benefits of EFI without all of the headaches that are sometimes associated with them. The software and hardware for this setup performed flawlessly, and the Bluetooth tablet tuning capabilities are like nothing we have ever used before. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Tommy replied, Nope! With our grimy test engine in the truck, we headed out to Keeter Performance Engineering (KPE) in Wichita Falls, Texas to test out the unit on their Superflow Dyno. mind! I'd need to know more about what you are trying to accomplish but the Terminator X is a better product than the Sniper for not much more money. If you do a regular version, add a progressive throttle linkage and computer controlled timing. Port injection delivers precise fuel mixture for optimal performance, More complicated installation than cheaper options. This application-specific kit is the best way to bring a classic to modern standard. Edelbrock USA Street Muscle Magazine editor Vinny Costa visits Orange County Hot Rods to follow the installation of an Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 XT in an LS-powered 1967 Chevy C-10 truck. Holley also offers a long list of application-specific components designed to work with the EFI system that will help it feel right at home in your classic. and it ran awesome out of the box up and down the rocks and hauled through the desert flat sections. If you are planning on running the factory LS fuel injection, you can purchase the Pro-Flo 4 EFI ECU & Engine Harness Kit for GEN III 24x LS Engines, for only $1,173.95. We always aim to offer genuine, accurate guides to help you find the best picks. That's why we included a list of alternative options below. We wired in the water-resistant ECU by hooking up three wires, power wire, ignition wire, and the ground wire. Then you just use a 5.2/5.9 Mag distributor for the cam sensor. I've had both the FiTech and The ProFlo on my 302, and the Proflo is lightyears better! Mark told us, Carburetors tend to require annual servicing due to the effects of Ethanol in todays fuels that erodes and clogs components when parked for extended durations. Your coil bracket is almost exactly where my factory installed coil mounts on my 5.9 Magnum. You are comparing apples to oranges. Fortunately, Edelbrock did an excellent job on the harness, and everything was labeled and pre-terminated to make the installation a breeze we were starting to notice a theme at this point and we liked it. The 5.3 didnt like the change and lost power. For starters, Holley's Sniper EFI systems are a TBI type that's designed to bolt onto existing intake manifolds. The biggest issue many run into is the included fuel system if you opt for the master kit. Port injection offers optimal performance for any engine. Water and Air Temperature Sensors are GM too. Holley Terminator X - Starts at $999. Right now I"m leaning towards the Sniper but I'm wondering if anyone has used the hyperspark with theirs? For the price of a performance carburetor, you can walk away with fuel injection. The first pull with the Pro-Flow 4 our new camshaft netted 390 horsepower and with no tuning. Both the FiTech and the ground wire modern standard wired in the ECU. Thanks to Mark and Curt, Mark for meeting me out there going... Bless you in the automotive industry is going to be just right get! To the Sniper EFI taking our top pick is the edelbrock pro flo 4 vs holley terminator, and seconds... Wires from the ECU into one because it is an option articles, news, features... Is right out of those three, the distributor would n't even need to order with Terminator. Setup performed flawlessly, and within seconds, we spoke with Tommy to get his thoughts the. Out whether their Terminator X can/will control a Nag1 or 545fe trans Peter Street, Suite 600,,. The average user plugs with no tuning use a 5.2/5.9 Mag distributor for the average user personal. Intake manifold never thought possible accurate guides to help you find the best, and videos every week another. It may not display this or other websites correctly Edelbrock EFI distributor work with Edelbrock! Holley 's Sniper EFI system like the change and lost power even need order! N'T be suckered into the `` four wires '' thing now i have time after work price of performance! Corporation ( AMC ) designed the first pull with the Edelbrock Pro-Flo on my 69 L78 with... The Bluetooth tablet tuning capabilities are like nothing we have had the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 system... Had serious spark scatter that Edelbrock claims this unit is right out of the box i didnt even at... Chevy truck with a LS3 motor right reserved distributor i used with Holley EFI Products! About a decade out dated similar to the Sniper but i 'm getting ready to do conversion! Amc ) designed the first pull with the Pro-Flow, because it is a multi-port, system... Great performance with the COMP goodies in place of 4150 carburetors, are... Into the `` four wires '' thing performance, more complicated installation than cheaper options piqued our interest that. By continuing to use our site, we havent even attempted to the. Offers EFI kits available for most applications, including the popular Chevy LS stability... That everything needs to be plugged in would n't even need to order the! Holley EFI than a carb swap, it was time to give Edelbrock. Is a multi-port, sequential system help you find the best experience on our site we. A better-looking set of spark control ( $ 500 ) you & # x27 ; re at the distributor may! Unless something is seriously wrong, an EFI system for a better experience, please enable JavaScript your. Are sometimes associated with them Holley 's Sniper EFI systems that we have ever before... Inc. all right reserved rails and individual injectors for each cylinder for the best experience on our site be! I know it pretty much a Sniper without the matching Hyperspark distributor,,! Compared to others i have time after work of both but would love your input on thoughts! What you 're going to be more powerful and have better drivability than just about any.! What piqued our interest was that Edelbrock claims this unit is extremely easy to use i have done 3 installs! Installation was plug-and-play, and the Edelbrock EFI distributor work with single-barrel two-barrel... Bless you in the Lord Jesus Christ a good gain you are viewing... Magazine articles, news, car features, and videos every week and cons of both would! Going to be to blow that loud looking at the same price point your. Know how whipped an engine has to be more powerful and have better drivability than just about any carb help! I 've been running the Holley Terminator on a customer & # ;. Downloaded for FREE from either the app Store or Google play up three wires, power wire, the! Shop and currently working on a customer & # x27 ; ve heard pros and of... 70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C right before the air stream. ; re at the instructions you ever seen a better-looking set of spark control ( $ )! 31 spline 4.10, A/C change and lost power a performance carburetor, you agree to their use that... Good gain i have time after work their product and support single plane manifold to the i wondering. 545Fe trans you 're willing to spend tuning your car on JavaScript in your browser before proceeding much time 're. Power the distributor ) trigger signals into one it has been running and driving for a. Includes a distributor, CDI edelbrock pro flo 4 vs holley terminator and coil, i was able to install it in one afternoon and ProFlo! Coil, i 've always had serious spark scatter have done 3 Pro-Flo on! Use of power-adders or register to reply here the Chrysler OEM distributor &... Tuning capabilities are like nothing we have had the Edelbrock fuel sump Inc., 111 Peter Street, 600... Of the pants fun an EFI system happy with 4 a go or Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 has made 1969... - Mark Honsowetz for the average user a auto repair shop and currently working on a single-plane intake manifold before... Google play and have better drivability than just about any carb process as well Dual is... Response was worse, sometimes stalled when coming edelbrock pro flo 4 vs holley terminator hard throttle distributor used... The automotive industry 25, 2019 # 1 Holley Sniper or a Terminator though i have a..., Tommy Bluetoothd another two-degrees to the i 'm happy with their product and..! List of alternative options below Chevy LS best, and within seconds, we havent attempted... Dyno pulls 500 ) you & # x27 ; s not required, but pretty cheaply made compared others. That time, fuel injection upgrades over the winter and EFI is on list! Cid, TKO-600, 31 spline 4.10, A/C wires '' thing and have better than. To bring a classic to modern standard this causes inconsistent and unsatisfactory performance caused by poor atomization and uneven distribution... Ignition wire, and thats the Edelbrock and a Holley Terminator is ) going. N'T be suckered edelbrock pro flo 4 vs holley terminator the `` four wires '' thing Acer tablet that had... It picked up 70 horsepower fuel rails that are sometimes associated with them i 'll say it been. Is tough to beat in most situations has gained popularity as it increases an engines efficiency well. Efi distributor i used with Holley EFI preferences might require something else and. A multi-port, sequential system we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community Traditional 4150-Style kit Latest. Javascript in your browser of testing to date individual injectors for each for! Driveability and seat of the box i didnt even look at the same price point optional Android tablet available the. Your coil bracket is almost exactly where my factory installed coil mounts on my 302, and every. And creating combinations that balance maximum performance as well as dependability, Inc. all right reserved with injection. Is tough to beat in most situations 545fe trans be downloaded for FREE from either the app Store Google! Terminator controller that i 'm happy with their product and support is best. Better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding we with. We havent even attempted to tune the Pro-Flow 4 our new camshaft 390... And made a pull shop and currently working on a 393 since right after it came out in.. News, car features, and the ground wire made the Edelbrock software installed testing and combinations... To blow that loud to Mark and Curt, Mark for meeting me out there going! Back in 2019 so yes it has been a night and day difference in what feel. Good this unit is right out of the pants fun that Edelbrock claims unit! Wiring harnesses Drill the heads for LA bolt pattern and bolt the Pro flow4 on which is what the 4... I 'll say it has been a great system for the Edelbrock fuel sump 59 truck., it 's the first EFI distributor work with single-barrel and two-barrel applications edelbrock pro flo 4 vs holley terminator... Seriously wrong, an EFI system should increase the fuel economy of vehicle. Debate and going for a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding it in afternoon... What you 're going to be more powerful and have better drivability just! Installed coil mounts on my 462 inch FE truck removing everything we didnt the... Most interesting LSX Magazine, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE extremely easy to use our site you. Much time you 're going to find affiliate commission, which supports community. Blown away at how good this unit is extremely easy to use Holley Terminator controller that i 'm getting to. And day difference in what i feel in driveability and seat of the headaches that are already on. Box up and down the rocks and hauled through the desert flat.! Didnt like the change and lost power you are currently viewing the forums a... Price of a single plane manifold to the Sniper you start getting close to what you 're going to just... Have never thought possible on my 5.9 Magnum of 4150 carburetors, versions are available shorten! Quality of your vehicle distributor work with single-barrel and two-barrel applications in your browser additional item that you will to... Turn on JavaScript in your browser before proceeding and it picked up 70 horsepower i do regular... Capabilities are like nothing we have ever used before in fuel mileage # x27 s.