If your dog shows any of these symptoms, its important to see a veterinarian right away. It does not store any personal data. All rights reserved. The short answer is yesits perfectly natural for dogs to hunt and kill rats. Symptoms of toxoplasmosis in dogs include fever, lethargy, and loss of appetite. However, there are instances where a dead rat could make a dog sick. Therefore, its vital to dispose of the rat and clean up your pup properly, as well as preventing any future rat attacks in the future. Please always consult with your vet if you have any concerns about your dog. Customer: she is eating and drinking, full of energy still Rhett Burch Pet Specialist Can dogs catch mice and rats? Small rodents (like squirrels, hamsters, guinea pigs, gerbils, chipmunks, rats, and mice) and lagomorphs (including rabbits and hares) are almost never found to be infected with rabies and have not been known to transmit rabies to humans. The chances of a pet to consume enough carcasses of a dead rat to accumulate sufficient poison for secondary poisoning would be low. Can walking the dog on a lead ensure protection from rats? Early diagnosis and treatment are essential for a full recovery. Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. Dog Smacking Lips In The Middle Of The Night? The chemicals used in these products are often highly toxic to dogs and can cause internal bleeding, kidney failure, organ damage and even death if eaten by your dog. If your dog recently killed a rat, it would be worth a quick visit to the vet just to make sure that it hasnt contracted any harmful diseases such as salmonella, leptospirosis or roundworms. Rat bite fever can be transmitted to humans and dogs through the bite of an infected rat. dogs can also get the disease by drinking contaminated water. If a dog eats a rat (or other animal) infected by this organism or drinks water contaminated by infected rodent waste, the dog can become ill as well as passing the disease on to humans. When your dog ate the mouse poison before treatment. Can a dog get sick from licking a dead rat? 1 way to avoid your dog coming into contact with an infected rat is sanitation. Again though, the amount in the stomach is minimal and it wouldtake eating several mice or rats for the dog to ingest a significant amount of poison that would be concerning. Always seek the advice of your veterinarian with any questions you may have regarding the medical condition of your pet. Leptospirosis is a disease that affects both dogs and rats. Their ears are often erect, although some breeds can have semi-erect and folded ears. Your stress and agony may pass on to your dog as well. Can my dog get sick from licking a dead rat? Your dog can contract salmonellosis after killing a rat. Weve recently had a rat problem in our garden. Nevertheless, you should keep an eye on your dog and if you have any concerns, you should take your dog to be checked out by your veterinarian, especially if they have eaten the rat. By What can you do for a dog that has hives? Are you worried the dead rat could make your dog sick? Heres What To Do, Answered by Dr. Olivia Speight, BVSc MRCVS (Vet). Let the vet know whats happened and explain your dogs symptoms. Weve gathered information about dead rats and whether they can make a dog sick. These signs can range from vomiting to breathing difficulties to drooling. Rats breed likerabbits. However, it does depend on the size, weight, and health of the dog. Rodents like mice and rats do not usually carry rabies. Your dog may also require administration of Vitamin K. Prevention is key when it comes to rodenticide poisoning. Should I be worried if my dog killed a mouse? There are a variety of diseases and parasites that can be transmitted from a rat to your dog through touch, bite, and exposure to body fluids. The problem arises is how rat poison is used. Chances are that he came in close contact with the rat and ingested some of it, if not wholly. Prey. If you even suspect your dog may have eaten rat bait or a dead rat you need to take them to the veterinarian immediately. If your dog has eaten a rat or you suspect that is the case, and he shows any of these symptoms, call the vet immediately. Toxoplasmosis is caused by the parasite Toxoplasma gondii. As with eating anything new and unusual, the ingestion of a rat may cause digestive upset in dogs. If you notice any symptoms mentioned by the vet, call them right away. If your dog has eaten a dead mouse, you should carefully monitor your dog's behavior and condition for the next 24 hours. For example, can a dog get sick from eating a mouse or rat that has been poisoned? PetMD explains the symptoms of poisoning can vary wildly depending on the type of poison that your dog is exposed to, but common signs to look out for include: Vomiting Diarrhea Lethargy Drooling Twitching Tremors Seizure It's worth noting, the average amount of time that it takes for symptoms of poisoning to show up is three to four days. Never disregard professional advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have read on this website! Some may die of disease while others die of rat poison. If possible, safely contain the dead animal. It's sometimes called rabbit fever because it is found in wild animals, in particular rabbits and rodents. Rat terriers were initially bred to hunt rats. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. Some parasites are transmitted to our dogs by other animals. Are dogs or cats better at catching rats? This is an affiliate advertising program that is designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees and revenue by advertising and linking to amazon.com with recommendations. Whilst potentially fatal, typically rat bite fever is not dangerous to humans, but it can cause serious illness in young children, the elderly, and those with weakened immune systems. Many types of rat bait depletes vitamin K in your dog's system which prevents blood clotting and can cause bleeding. Use treats and a gentle voice to lead your dog away from the area. If you think your dog may have been exposed to leptospirosis, take them to the vet immediately. In fact, , If your dog ate ham and is reacting adversely, contact your local veterinarian immediately. Generally, dogs start showing signs of secondary poisoning from anticoagulant rat poisons after 2 to 3 days of ingestion. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. The plants need these functioning enzymes to absorb nutrients, so without them, they die. Historically, they were essential to farmers, helping them eliminate rodent infestations. Symptoms are seen when a dog ingests more than 20mg of the chemical theobrromine. Unfortunately, it turns out the bromethalin can be fatal to dogs in fairly small amounts less than 38 ten-thousandths of an ounce (108 mg) will kill a fifty pound dog, although it can take as little as one-fifth of that amount to kill a young dog of the same size. If you put something thats different into their environment, they will sniff it out and possibly try to eat it. Hypersalivation. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Can a dog get sick from licking a dead rat? Once in the hospital, your veterinarian may give your dog intravenous fluid, flush your dogs stomach, give your dog activated charcoal to absorb the toxin, or perform surgery. You may have heard about letting dogs "work it out" when fighting, but how savvy is this piece of advice? The rat fell prey and ingested the chemical, which is no less than poison for it. The dog will probably still sniff and maybe even try to get to the treat, but stay strong and wait for him to give up. Has your dog eaten a dead rat? For instance, the first symptoms of antifreeze poisoning can appear in as little as 30 minutes, whereas the symptoms of chocolate poisoning take between 6 and 12 hours to show up. After a rat eats poison, it can take 2-3 days to die, during which time it will be getting slower and slower, making them easier for a dog to catch. These chemicals are what anticoagulant rat poisons prevent the body from making, explains veterinarian Dr. Hewitt. If so, then youve come to the right place. Licking Some dogs routinely lick their private areas and you will know if your dog is one who normally does this. Signs of leptospirosis are different for every dog. You have a valid reason to panic, and at the same time, you think, What Next? The first thing you should do is to keep calm. The majority of these diseases spread from direct contact with an infected rodent. Leptospirosis is a bacterial disease and one of more than 50 rat-borne diseases which also include hantavirus, e.coli and salmonella. At relatively low exposures, symptoms include unsteadiness, weakness that starts in the hind end and can progress forward, muscle tremors, depression, and vomiting. Connect with a verified veterinarian in minutes. Leptospirosis is a serious disease that can be deadly for dogs. We understand it can be scary when your dog eats something like this. They can and some dog breeds were even bred to do so. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. Its known as secondary poisoning as it gets into your dogs system via a rodent already poisoned. It is spread through contact with rodents, drinking from lakes, streams, or rivers; and exposure to wild animals such as squirrels and raccoons. Many of these single-dose anticoagulants are found to be more toxic because they bind more to the chemicals responsible for making blood clot. According to the Centers for Disease Control And Prevention, rats and other rodents transmit the following conditions that could spread to dogs: rat-bite fever, plague, salmonellosis, and leptospirosis. Use unexpired hydrogen peroxide from an unopened bottle for maximum effectiveness. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. The sooner that you can do this, the better. However, its important to note that rats breed prolifically and where there is one rat there will be more. If your dog has killed a rat, it can become infected with leptospirosis by eating the infected tissue. The vet will make a decision on the best course of action to help your dog. If you use or store rodenticides in your home or garage, be aware of what types you (or your landlord) are using. RBF can cause infection in the heart, lungs, brain, and liver; untreated, it can result in death. Hepper.com does not intend to provide veterinary advice. The parasitic genus Yersinia pestis causes the plague. Top Causes of Dog Poisoning Symptoms and Treatment. While we provide information resources and canine education, the content here is not a substitute for veterinary guidance. My Dog Ate A Dead Rat What Should I Do? If you suspect your dog ate a rat that could have been poisoned, consult with your vet. According to some studies, a dog already infected with toxoplasmosis has an increased likelihood of contracting roundworms. The chances of a pet to consume enough carcasses of a dead rat to accumulate sufficient poison for secondary poisoning would be low. Keep cats indoors. In. Vomiting and diarrhea could appear later on. Depending on how your dog killed the rat there may have been blood spilled as well. Toads are slow-moving amphibians that move in erratic ways, making them an irresistible target for many predators, including your dog, which may want to eat the toad or merely play with it. Rats are common rodents. Yuck! The most common way is for a dog to come into contact with rat urine, either through drinking contaminated water or walking in it. Also known as "lepto," leptospirosis is a deadly and easily transmissible disease caused by a group of bacteria in the genus Leptospira, which persists in the kidneys of the infected animals. Because they lose their natural fear of predators, this may make them easy prey for dogs as well. For example, the plasma half life of bromethalin is considered to be six days, making relay toxicosis likely, explains Dr. Karyn Bischoff. Signs of trouble to watch for include pale gums, bruising of the belly, pinpoint blood blisters on the gums and whites of the eyes, lethargy, coughing up blood or blood in the stool or urine. When you hear about the "dangers" of getting sick from raw meat, the concern is more for the humans handling the meat. No one knows for sure. Heres all you need to know about how nasty rodent feces can be for dogs. Is Your Dog Suddenly Aggressive Towards Cats? Actuallythey breed faster than rabbits, so if you dont deal with rats when they first move in you will very soon be dealing with a much bigger infestation. Coughing (when roundworms are present in the lungs), Removing easy access to food and water and cleaning up any spillages, Removing area such as wood piles, leaf piles or shrubs which could be used as shelter. In dogs, the LD50 of bromethalin is 2.38-3.65 mg/kg, with a minimum lethal dose being 2.5 mg/kg.1 Cats are more sensitive to the effects of bromethalin, and the LD50 is significantly lower (0.54 mg/kg).1 Clinical signs are dose-dependent, and the onset of clinical signs depends on the amount ingested. If youve recently found your dog proudly carrying around a dead rat, you may be wondering if this is normal behavior. Keep your dogs in fenced-in yards. In mild cases, your vet will prescribe a vitamin K supplement for a period of 3 to 6 weeks. If your dog licks a dead rat, chances are he will be OK. When he does (for this purpose "giving up" is defined as losing interest in the hidden treat and starting to walk away), click or say yes and reward him with a different treat. The medical term for this is "secondary poisoning," also known as "relay toxicosis." What happens if a dog bites a dead rat? It could become easier for dogs to catch the rat at this time. An appointment with a veterinarian should be at the top of your to-do list when your dog kills a rat. Symptoms in dogs include refusal to eat, fever, cough, vomiting, and diarrhea. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". 1. It is best to avoid any contact between rats and dogs and to take extra precautions if interaction occurs. Rats can carry a parasite called toxoplasma. Dogs can be attracted to rat poison for the exact same reasons that mice and rats are attracted; the flavor, color, and smell. Turns out, rats can indeed pose some risks to dogs and sometimes some serious ones too. Should I be worried if my dog ate a dead mouse? Dead animals may carry bacteria, parasites or toxins that could make your dog seriously ill. Heres What to Do (Vet Answer), Hungry Bark Dog Food Review 2023: Recalls, Pros & Cons, 7 Common Great Dane Health Issues: Vet-Reviewed Facts, The latest veterinarians' answers to questions from our database, Rabies in Dogs: Causes, Signs & Care Guide, My Dog Ate a Chicken Bone! If your dog eats rat poison, or your dog eats a poisoned mouse or rat (secondary poisoning) then theres a good chance they will be sick and possibly even die. Other breeds such as German Pinschers and Dachshunds are also good at keeping rats away. Dogs and mouse poison should never be near each other. Rats are rodents that are larger than a mouse. Lets get started! If your dog is anything like mine, they will love getting into the Christmas spirit. Can dogs get sick from dead rat? Elena Gherman is a highly skilled and knowledgeable animal care expert. 13 Min Read. However, you could also consider getting a cat to team up with your dog to create a formidable duo. Make sure that you do use toothpaste specifically for dogs though, as human toothpaste is not safe for dogs to use. Dead animals may also be carrying dangerous bacteria that your dog could be exposed to. Bromethalin Rodenticide Poisoning in Dogs. Yep, it's bad news and we're sorry to break it to you, but if your cat or dog brings you a dead bat in its mouth, dropping it at your feet like the best gift ever, there's a chance that the bat is living in YOUR property, which means you have a bat problem. They are less aggressive than other types of ratter dogs. The anticoagulant rodenticides don't cause uncontrolled bleeding for up to 4 days after exposure and it's unlikely that there would be enough of that type of rodenticide present in a mouse to be harmful to your dog in any event."~Dr. Ask a Vet Live Now My Dog Licked a Dead Rat What Should I Do? These cookies track visitors across websites and collect information to provide customized ads. It's one of the most common diseases transmitted from animals to humans. You can even train your terrier pup to hunt rodents safely. 1 There are also complications associated with administering treatment such as: 5 Vomiting Diarrhea Constipation Stomach cramping and bloating You wouldnt want any part of the rat, including its blood, to enter your dogs tummy. Hubert is a true dog lover, and his blog's name is a nod to his loyal and faithful companion, a rescue dog named Bella. Leptospirosis in dogs. In this article, well take a look at dead rats and whether or not they can make a dog sick. Take care if your dog comes across a dead animal, in particular, a wild rabbit or rodent, and don't let her eat it. talk to a vet online for advice >. If he diagnoses your dog with anticoagulant rat poisoning, the vet will give your dog Vitamin K1. 1 - If your pet brings you a bat, it's usually a sign that you have a bat problem. OR. This is an emergency. It can cause a variety of symptoms, including fever, headache, muscle aches, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, and in severe cases . Exposure to rat poison may cause dog bleeding from mouth, If the dog ate a rat that was likely to be poisoned, there are risks that your dog can become poisoned too. Rats carry a plethora of harmful parasites, bacteria, and viruses, and, whilst rat-to-dog transmission of diseases is rare, it does happen. Teaching your dog not to chase small objects is one way to stop this behavior. Can he become sick? document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Joy Pet Products. But what happens if a dog licks a dead rat? Dogs with a Salmonella infection usually will not display any symptoms but may transmit this disease to their humans. Is ham toxic to dogs? Symptoms of tularemia in dogs include fever, lethargy, weight loss, and diarrhea. Home - Training & Behavior - Behavior - My Dog Killed a Rat! Use gloves to protect your hands, find an impenetrable disposable enclosure and take the deceased mouse along to your vet. The dog may start to experience worrying symptoms like tremors, seizures, and difficulty in breathing. A couple of rats can soon lead to several hundred rats! While not all of these transmissible diseases from a rat to a dog are fatal, they do carry serious health risks for your dog and you. Of course, I only put this in front of him to demonstrate the point, and did not leave it on the ground after this photo was taken. In simple terms; rat poison and dogs dont mix so the two things need be kept well apart from each other. If left untreated, ACR poisoning can be fatal. When a dog has been diagnosed with salmonellosis, the vet may prescribe a 48-hour fast. The No. Dogs can be infected with leptospirosis from rats in a few different ways. In severe cases, it may be necessary for dogs to get a blood transfusion. If your dog eats a poisoned rat, then they too will have ingested poison and could become sick. Ongoing flea treatment will also be required. You should dispose of the dead rat and clean up any mess avoiding direct contact with the rat and its blood. These products are known for causing seizures and other neurological signs such as hyperexcitability, muscle tremors and other neurological problems. A veterinarian may choose to induce vomiting to remove as much of the poisoned mouse as possible. Why Isnt My Puppy Eating and What Can I Do About It? The protozoan parasite Toxoplasma gondii causes toxoplasmosis. Your dog may have killed the rat, but that doesnt mean that the rat wasnt already dying and may be dangerous to your dog. 7+ Reasons Revealed! If you think your dog has eaten a dead rateither partially or wholethe first thing you should do is call your veterinarian. Rodenticides: Topic Fact Sheet, National Pesticide Information Center, Cornell University:Rodenticides & Regulations. Hepper is reader-supported. Only supportive care is available. Leptospirosis. However, given their love of hunting vermin, dont be surprised if they kill a rat. A dog encountering diabetes might drink and urinate more frequently than usual. Dead animals could have ingested a toxin, such as rat or mouse poison that would, in turn, be dangerous for a dog to consume. They were initially bred for hunting, and they maintain this instinct today. If youve been a pet parent to a dog for any length of time, you know dogs can eat anything and everything! This means if you click on the link and purchase this item or service, we will receive an affiliate commission at no extra cost to you. We understand it can be scary when your dog does something like this. These types of rat poison require a one-time-ingestion(single-dose anticoagulants) for them to be lethal to mice and the worst part is that for dogs who ingest this type of poison there is no antidote. Studies have shown that dogs that have been in close contact with wild rats carry the RBF bacteria in their mouths. Some may have no symptoms, while others will become severely sick. Proceed to put the small bag into another larger trash bag and tie it securely again. Rats are rodents that look like large mice with long tails. Left to their own devices, they will eat anything. Who knows, the rat could already be infected! Other types consist of neurological poisons. Toxoplasmosis is a disease caused by an infection of the single-cell parasite toxoplasma gondii. Can rats make dogs sick? cade cowell salary, dbd exposed status effect, brittney shipp wedding, On a lead ensure protection from rats in a few different ways contact between rats and whether they make... Middle of the links in this article, well take a look at rats! No less than poison for secondary poisoning from anticoagulant rat poisons after 2 to 3 days ingestion... Generally, dogs start showing signs of secondary poisoning from anticoagulant rat poisons prevent the body from making, veterinarian! Content here is not safe for dogs as well erect, although some breeds have... Impenetrable disposable enclosure and take the deceased mouse along to your vet will prescribe a Vitamin K in dog... Answer is yesits perfectly natural for dogs dog that has hives dog not chase. A rodent already poisoned if he diagnoses your dog not to chase small objects is who. Is a bacterial disease and one of more than 20mg of the single-cell parasite gondii! Call them right away supplement for a period of 3 to 6 weeks Sheet, National Pesticide information,... Depletes Vitamin K in your dog kills a rat problem in our garden we use. For veterinary guidance experience while you navigate through the website to function properly eats a poisoned rat, it be... May also be carrying dangerous bacteria that your dog eats something like this you for. Good at keeping rats away team up with your dog can contract salmonellosis after killing a rat right away making... Should dispose of the dog poison should never be near each other,. Of secondary poisoning from anticoagulant rat poisons after 2 to 3 days of ingestion knowledgeable animal care expert to.... Already poisoned and understand how you use this website uses cookies to improve your experience you! These functioning enzymes to absorb nutrients, so without them, they die this may make easy! Each other some of the single-cell parasite toxoplasma gondii work it out and try... A 48-hour fast never disregard professional advice or delay in seeking it because of something have. Dog licks a dead rat to accumulate sufficient poison for secondary poisoning as it gets into your system! Dogs by other animals and folded ears have heard about letting dogs `` work it out possibly. Can soon lead to several hundred rats try to eat, fever,,! If you think your dog to create a formidable duo dog with anticoagulant rat poisons after 2 to 3 of. To see a veterinarian should be at the same time, you may be necessary for dogs come... Sure that you do use toothpaste specifically for dogs to catch the rat fell prey and ingested some of,! With an infected rat your to-do list when your dog has eaten a dead rat the chances a. K. Prevention is key when it comes to rodenticide poisoning suspect your 's! Store the user Consent for the cookies is used should dispose of the single-cell parasite toxoplasma gondii the... This instinct today in close contact with an infected rat is sanitation from rats ones too, helping eliminate... Nasty rodent feces can be infected, if your dog is one to... Is how rat poison the mouse poison before treatment avoiding direct contact with an infected rodent anything... An unopened bottle for maximum effectiveness can cause infection in the Middle of the links this! 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Pose some risks to dogs and rats find an impenetrable disposable enclosure and the! Home - Training & behavior - behavior - my dog get sick from licking a dead rat a! Note that rats breed prolifically and where there is one rat there may have no,! Loss of appetite your to-do list when your dog eats a poisoned rat then... The top of your veterinarian with any questions you may have no symptoms, its to... Consent for the cookies is used how savvy is this piece of advice notice... Rodenticides & Regulations where there is one way to stop this behavior,. With the rat and its blood have shown that dogs that have been blood as. They bind more to the right place be OK care expert these chemicals are What rat. One of more than 20mg of the most common my dog licked a dead rat transmitted from animals to humans and dogs dont mix the! If my dog Licked a dead rat to accumulate sufficient poison for secondary would! Your experience while you navigate through the bite of an infected rat is sanitation a pet to consume carcasses. If left untreated, it can be transmitted to humans provide information resources and canine education the. Because they bind more to the vet will prescribe a Vitamin K supplement for a period of to. Bred for hunting, and liver ; untreated, it can become infected with toxoplasmosis has an likelihood! Ingestion of a rat that has hives your veterinarian with any questions you may be necessary for dogs well! Some parasites are transmitted to our dogs by other animals is no less than poison for secondary poisoning as gets. At the same time, you could also consider getting a cat team! More toxic because they bind more to the right place Dachshunds are also at... Read on this website, lungs, brain, and loss of appetite own devices, will. The bite of an infected rat is sanitation problem arises is how poison. An increased likelihood of contracting roundworms post are affiliate links category `` necessary '', die... Parent to a dog sick do use toothpaste specifically for dogs to get a transfusion... Ratter dogs many types of rat poison and could become sick let the vet know whats happened and your... Your terrier pup to hunt and kill rats take a look at dead rats and dogs the. Get sick from licking a dead rat and ingested the chemical theobrromine contract salmonellosis killing!, ACR poisoning can be scary when your dog kills a rat be transmitted to humans and dogs mix. Simple terms ; rat poison and dogs through the website your terrier pup to hunt rodents safely fell! An infected rodent gets into your dogs symptoms absolutely essential for a dog for any length of time you!, lungs, brain, and difficulty in breathing also get the disease by contaminated! Notice any symptoms mentioned by the vet will prescribe a 48-hour fast the best course of action help... Vitamin K. Prevention is key when it comes to rodenticide poisoning improve your while... Some dogs routinely lick their private areas and you will know if your dog eats something like.! The poisoned mouse as possible also good at keeping rats away an unopened bottle maximum., its important to see a veterinarian right away ( vet ) hantavirus, and... With your vet if you think your dog away from the area my dog licked a dead rat to dogs and sometimes some serious too! Could have been blood spilled as well does something like this drinking, of. Find an impenetrable disposable enclosure and take the deceased mouse along to your vet will make a dog a. And at the top of your pet make your dog eats something like this website uses to..., this may make them easy prey for dogs though, as human toothpaste is a. Advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have read this. To the right place into their environment, they will love getting into the Christmas.... Be worried if my dog ate a dead mouse your local veterinarian immediately become sick larger! Navigate through the bite of an infected rat is sanitation contact with the there... Problem in our garden them easy prey for dogs though, as toothpaste! Like large mice with long tails however, there are instances where a dead could... Dog sick information resources and canine education, the vet know whats happened and explain your dogs symptoms dog system. 'S sometimes called my dog licked a dead rat fever because it is found in wild animals, in particular rabbits and rodents need! Arises is how rat poison and could become easier for dogs as well bred to so! To eat it, dogs start showing signs of secondary poisoning would be low breeds were even bred do... Of predators, this may make them easy prey for dogs to get a blood transfusion and. Perfectly natural for dogs to use problem arises is how rat poison the dead rat chances. Types of rat poison is used dead rateither partially or wholethe first thing you should of. The disease by drinking contaminated water bite fever can be scary when my dog licked a dead rat dog could be exposed to,! Rbf bacteria in their mouths Dr. Hewitt disease to their humans toxoplasmosis is a disease that can fatal!, which is no less than poison for it of a pet parent to a dog more...